:: Shingetsu Institute ::

Newsletter No. 742
Editorial-Opinion
September 17, 2007

THE ASAHI SHINBUN INTERVIEWS THE FORMER AMBASSADORS OF EGYPT AND ISRAEL

Both Egyptian Ambassador Hisham Badr and Israeli Ambassador Eli Cohen ended their missions in Tokyo last month. The Asahi Shinbun has published the following two interviews with the ambassadors.

Japan Must Make its Voice Heard in the Middle East

By Hisham Badr

Following are excerpts from a recent Asahi Shinbun interview with Hisham Badr, Egypt's former ambassador to Japan:

Asahi Reporter: Egypt has been opposed to the Iraq War from the start. Why?

Hisham Badr: We have made our position very clear. Today in the United States, many people recognize that the Iraq War was a big mistake. The leadership should have realized beforehand that going to war would be a big mistake, not to say afterward that it was a mistake, so let's pull out our troops. Japan's role was different from that of other countries. We understand the role Japan has been playing in Iraq's postwar reconstruction. We are a friend of the United States. A friend is supposed to advise a friend when something is wrong. We continued to do this, but the United States did not listen to us.

Asahi Reporter: Has the image of Japan among Egyptians changed with Japan's involvement in the Iraq War?

Hisham Badr: Japan is not taking sides and has no historical negative occupation legacy in the Middle East. We criticized everyone except Japan. We knew Japan's role was different. The war in Iraq was very much criticized and hated in Egypt and the Arab world, but Japan's role was understood because Japan has a long history of credibility with us. So when Japan comes in and says we are doing reconstruction work for humanitarian purposes and we have no intention of fighting, we trust Japan because there is a long history of positive interaction. At the same time, however, we would like to see Japan play a much bigger role in the Middle East peace process.

Asahi Reporter: What does Japan need to do for that?

Hisham Badr: In the eyes of Egyptians in recent years, Japan's presence is getting larger. Japan is not only an economic power but also a political power. Japan is very close to the United States. The United States has a lot of problems in the Middle East. If Japan wants to play a bigger role, it should have a louder voice. It should take a lot of its own initiatives. Japan should not just blindly follow the United States. We want to see Japan play a unique role. We want to hear Japan's message and see its soft power in action. When I speak to my friends in Japan, they feel that we are far away. But people look at Japan now as a major political power.

Asahi Reporter: How do you view the Palestinian situation, which is unraveling fast?

Hisham Badr: We have to look back historically and see how we arrived at where we are today. A few years back, the Americans wanted to have an election in Palestine to advance democratization. We advised the Americans that maybe the time was not suitable to have an election because it might produce a Hamas government. But they said, don't worry. Then Hamas came along and the U.S. position changed. They said we are not going to deal with a government of terrorists. The international community's decision to deal with Hamas at that point is the beginning of the problem we have today.

Asahi Reporter: How should we deal with extremism that could lead to terrorism?

Hisham Badr: Again, we have to look at the root causes that give rise to extremism and terrorism. No one is born a terrorist. There is a certain cause that makes these people terrorists. There's anger, frustration and lack of hope. You have to deal with that. The Palestinian question has remained unresolved for about a century now. This condition in which we have double standards, a lack of justice, illegitimacy, frustration, this killing of people, the destruction of homes -- these are the factors that cause people to be terrorists. The war on Iraq had made people, especially when no weapons of mass destruction were found, resort to terrorism. A country has been destroyed. And for what reason? Where is the legitimacy? Don't you think that caused a lot of frustration? All this frustration leads to an environment in which extremism prevails.

Asahi Reporter: Japan has a unique relationship with Iran. Do you think Iran's presence is dangerous in the Middle East?

Hisham Badr: Egypt and Iran have normal relations. Egypt on its part supports the right of any state to scientifically develop the peaceful uses of nuclear technology as stipulated in the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. It is obvious that Iran is endeavoring to acquire more influence in several regional problems and issues facing the Middle East now, such as the domestic problems in Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian issue, which are all elements that can be used by Tehran in its confrontation with the West. Egypt, however, has constantly objected to the introduction of nuclear weapons in the Middle East by any state, and has been unequivocal in our demands for the establishment of a nuclear weapon-free zone in the region.

We are against Iran or any other country being nuclearized. We also have to make Israel end its nuclear program. The U.N. Security Council resolution concerning Iraq said we would be dealing with the Middle East nuclear issue, including Israel. It was one of the reasons Iraq was attacked, this problem of weapons of mass destruction. So what about Israel? If the world reacts to Israel as it did to Iraq and Iran, then the overall situation would be better. Why let Israel off the hook? This is what leads to the frustration. We should put more pressure on Israel. Our position is to clear the whole region of all weapons of mass destruction -- nuclear, chemical, and biological.

This is an area where Egypt and Japan agree fully. Because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we hope Japan will also put more pressure on Israel.

Asahi Reporter: Do you think the United States would bomb Iran?

Hisham Badr: I hope not. We don't need any more conflicts. Dialogue is the best way to resolve these situations. Diplomacy does not mean weakness, it is strength. We have learned in the Middle East in the last few years about the limits of military power. We have seen the limits of power in Iran, Lebanon and Israel. We saw how in Israel, after one full month of hitting Lebanon, it could not take back even a single soldier that was taken hostage. Diplomacy is the real strength.

Hisham Badr is a career diplomat who served as Egypt's ambassador to Japan from November 2003 to August 2007. Prior to that, he was a professor of political science and diplomacy at the American University in Cairo.

Iran 'Definitely' Aiming to Become a Nuclear Power

By Eli Cohen

Following are excerpts from a recent Asahi Shinbun interview with Eli Cohen, Israel's former ambassador to Japan:

Asahi Reporter: From Israel's viewpoint, which is better? A stable Iraq under Saddam Hussein or the one we have now?

Eli Cohen: Right now, this chaos is not causing any problems for us. Saddam Hussein was making problems for the Iraqi people. He was an actual threat to us when he attacked Tel Aviv with Scud missiles in 1991. I think in five to six years, we will have a big problem with the Kurds. Right now, they are quiet because they have a kind of autonomy and are part of the government but they are building power. There is no question that in five or six years, when the Kurds in Iraq start to demand independence, it will be a huge problem for Iraq. It will be the core of a new problem.

Asahi Reporter: Practically, do you think military operations can terminate Hamas?

Eli Cohen: Totally terminate Hamas, no. But one of the options is what we call the red line, as in the case in Lebanon. If a government passes the red line and does not act, it can no longer be called a government so another government steps in. So there is a red line. You have to take action. So we can enter Gaza and we can eliminate the power of Hamas but we cannot eliminate Hamas because it is an ideological issue.

Asahi Reporter: People say there are so many lessons to be learned from Lebanon, for example, that military operations could not save Israeli soldiers who were kidnapped by Hezbollah.

Eli Cohen: This is shallow analyzing. I am a soldier, too. All of us in Israel are soldiers. A kidnapped soldier is a soldier. They know that if they kidnap a soldier, they have a weapon against us. But they have to know they cannot squeeze us any more. They can kidnap but we will fight them to the end. It doesn't matter. Kidnapping is not a weapon that can be used against us anymore. They cannot do it forever.

Asahi Reporter: Do you think that if Palestine embraces full democracy and a real multiparty system is established that Hamas can work as a moderate party in that system?

Eli Cohen: Hamas has a very clear agenda… to destroy Israel and to continue with terrorism and kill civilians. How can you start a peace process with someone who says "I want to destroy you," not recognize you and not stop terror? How can you speak with someone who continues to kill your children?

Asahi Reporter: You were deeply involved in the concept of "Corridor for Peace and Prosperity" proposed by Japan, weren't you? You wrote a paper on it. What was the title of your paper?

Eli Cohen: It was titled "Model of Success." Actually, (then) Prime Minister (Junichiro) Koizumi took it a little bit further. I suggested that Israel and Japan support the Palestinians in Jericho on the West Bank.

Asahi Reporter: Usually, when we think about a peace process of any conflict, political settlement comes first and after that comes economic reconstruction or economic support but in this case, it is the other way around, isn't it?

Eli Cohen: Yes, my idea is the opposite because there is no political solution in the region. Because they think all belongs to them and we think all belongs to us. It doesn't matter who is right or who is wrong. People in the middle are ready to compromise. But every time, the extremists are causing problems. When you bring some stability in their life, they become stronger.

Asahi Reporter: Do you think the Iranian nuclear issue can be resolved diplomatically?

Eli Cohen: Unfortunately, I don't think so. I think the Iranians are going for it.

Asahi Reporter: What do you think about Japan's policy toward Iran?

Eli Cohen: I think Japan has no choice because it's very clear that North Korea and Iran have connections. For its own national interests, Japan should put more pressure on Iran, not diplomatic but economic pressure. I think the economic pressure is working. I don't think the Iranians are fanatic. They are practical. But the leadership of President Ahmadinejad is fanatic.

Asahi Reporter: What do you think of the argument that Japan should arm itself with nuclear weapons?

Eli Cohen: I am split. We say in the Jewish wisdom, countries that want peace have to prepare themselves for war. Because if you are weak, war will come to you. But if you are strong, they don't want to make a war with you. So from this point of view, if Japan were to have nuclear capability, it would not have to use it. Nuclear powers have deterrent power. Everybody is asking Israel, do you have nuclear weapons. We say we don't know but if you think we do, that's good because it is a deterrent power. This is one point of view.

And the other point of view is somebody has to start with not having nuclear weapons. Somebody has to show the way. Japan is a strong economy. But Japan faces a threat from North Korea. But if it arms itself with nuclear weapons, that would stop the threat. North Korea knows the United States has nuclear weapons that it would use to retaliate. So it is not a matter of whether Japan has it or not. It would not change the situation of retaliation. So from this point of view, I would rather that Japan does not possess nuclear weapons.

There is a crazy person in North Korea just as there is a crazy person in Iran. He doesn't have to be logical, all he has to do is push the button. I don't want to be naive about Japan. Even without being naive, I think Japan should not be afraid to talk about it. If you want to discuss it, speak about it. The subject is on everyone's mind so put it on the table and discuss it. And the final decision would be we don't want it.

When I visited Hiroshima and Nagasaki, people asked me whether Israel has nuclear weapons. But Japan is not in the same position as Israel. Israel is threatened with destruction. Second, if we say we have nuclear weapons or not, we will lose our deterrent power. If the world situation changes and our situation changes, we will definitely show our secret.

Eli Cohen was Israel's ambassador to Japan from January 2004 to August 2007. He ran a high-tech company. He was a member of Parliament before he took up his assignment in Japan.